Notify Message
Forums
Page 1
Search
#13194997 Apr 16, 2017 at 10:36 PM · Edited 6 months ago
646 Posts
*Spoilers* for obvious reasons. Mostly meant for Sunday team people but also for anyone who wants to pull the fight in HM. Don't look if you want to die horribly.

Tyth is an add management fight that is a DPS mechanical check and a healcheck in some phases. It does not require much in terms of sheer DPS, but the DPS have to have extremely good control. Strong AoE is highly recommended, and a composition of 2 melee and 2 ranged is ideal, although 3 melee and 3 ranged comps will technically be doable. You can run whatever tanks you want. Scoundrel healers are somewhat meh, but doable. Guardians are very strong as a DPS in this fight due to raid utility and interrupt utility.

Mechanics & Other Information:
The fight begins on a circular platform. The boss starts in the middle. We will move the boss gradually to the edge. Boss has about 7.1m health, adds have about 100k.

Rage & Rage Overflow

The boss increases damage dealt and cleave width based on his rage stacks, which start at 0. At 3 stacks, his cleaves widen slightly. At 6 stacks, his cleave becomes a 180 degrees width. At 10 stacks he casts Rage Overload, venting two rage and doing roughly 80k damage. THIS DAMAGE CANNOT BE MITIGATED BY ANY COOLDOWN. If after the Rage Overload he is still at 10 stacks or higher, he will continue to Rage Overload every GCD.

If any player dies during the fight, it gives the boss 3 rage. If any add dies during the fight, it gives the boss 1 rage. If the boss kills an add (any cleave the boss performs kills an add automatically if the add is standing in the cleave) gives the boss 3 rage.

The boss's rage vents on a natural cycle of one rage every 7 seconds, represented by a buff on the boss's bar. If the boss gains rage during the tickdown of the buff, it will refresh the buff, delaying the rage vent.

Grace adds also can decrease the boss's Rage stacks via Healing or DR (see adds)

Below 25%, Tyth will also start generating rage of his own accord, triggering a burn phase. He seems to generate 2 rage on an interval around 15 seconds, but we aren't quite sure.

The Adds

Tyth has four individual types of adds with different names and functions. They spawn on a set interval that's somewhere around every 40ish seconds, and the spawn locations are telegraphed by color. They start spawning 4 at a time, and gradually ramp up in terms of how many adds spawn throughout the fight.

Guardians (Yellow): Guardians follow whoever they are targeting and do massive single target damage, gaining damage dealt the longer they stay alive.

Lance (Red): The Lance shoots a laser beam at whoever he targets. The laser beam is a cleave similar to the width of Revan's red knockback on first floor. This beam can be reflected (NOT recommended) and brings down Justice Shields.

Justice (Blue): Justices have a shield that reflects all damage going in outside of the shield radius, and he takes 60% less damage. Standing inside the shield increases the damage taken of the player. Can be cleansed. Standing in the shield long term is unwise. Stunning the Justice removes the shield for the duration of the stun. The laser from the Lance will stun the Justice for 12 seconds and bring the shield down if the laser cleave HITS the Justice NPC (NOT THE SHIELD, the NPC itself.)

Grace (Green): Graces cast a 3 second heal with a green beam and icon that heals the boss for a significant amount of health at the end of it (probably about 3-5%). This heal removes 1 rage from the boss. THIS CAN NEVER GET OFF. He casts the heal twice in a row, then a yellow beam that gives the boss 60% DR for 10 seconds. This cast removes 3 rage. Most of the time, this will have to also be interrupted, but there are situations where we will need to let it get off.

The Spawning for the adds is RNG based, but has a few constraints. There are twelve possible spawn locations in the circle, equidistant from each other. We have not observed more than two Graces spawn in a single wave of adds. In addition, if no Lance has spawned in a wave, the NEXT wave HAS to have a Lance. However, lances can spawn back to back in multiple waves. Other than this, there is no other spawning logic. The fight starts by spawning 4 adds at a time, and throughout the fight more and more adds start spawning per wave.

Phase 1: 100%-60%: 4 adds

Phase 2: 59%-25%: 5+ adds, proportionate to how far in the fight you are.

Phase 3: 25%-0: Rage Intensification Phase, Adds just spawn in hilariously large amounts.

Inversion

At the 23 second mark the boss casts an ability called Inversion, which takes 5 seconds to cast and lands at the 28s mark. Reoccurs every ~38s thereafter. Throughout the cast, there will be a faint circle that surrounds the boss. The size is about 120% the size of the Corruptor Zero circle. At the end of it, the following things will happen:

IF YOU ARE NOT IN THE CIRCLE: You will be pulled towards the boss, you will do 50% less damage.

IF YOU ARE IN THE CIRCLE: You will be thrown THROUGH the boss in a straight line proportional to how far away you are from the boss while you are still in the circle. The farther you are away from the center of the circle, the less distance you will be thrown. You will also lose any threat you have generated, and will take 100% more damage. If you have the healing debuff, it will be cleansed. It is somewhat similar to the shoulder throw in sparky.

BOTH: you will be Hindered (you cannot use movement abilities). It is imperative that if you are in the circle you are thrown to the correct location.

NOTE: AT LEAST ONE person has to be outside of the circle, if everyone is in the circle, the entire group dies instantly.

Debuffs

Between Inversions the Tanks will be subject to two debuffs. The first is a cleansable armor shred the healers will cleanse, cause healer mechanics. Our healers cleansed every 3 stacks.

The second is a 10% (?) healing debuff that stacks. Standing inside the inversion and getting thrown cleanses the debuff, and if you did not cleanse it it would just stack infinitely. Therefore, the debuff forces a Tank swap, with the Tanks alternating who IS standing in the inversion, and who is NOT standing in the Inversion.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13195125 Apr 17, 2017 at 01:01 AM · Edited 6 months ago
646 Posts
Roles:

Boss Tank / Add Tank

Grace DPS / Tunneler DPS / Justice DPS / Guardian (Not the class, the add) DPS

Healers (AKA meatbags that we have to keep alive for some reason.)

STRATEGY:

PHASE 1-2

Phase 1 is very easy and sets up the majority of the fight from 100%-60%.

Phase 2 is like Phase 1 but with a healthy dose of cocaine and hell (5-7 adds as the boss gets closer to burn, from 59%-25%).

Tanking

The tanks have two roles they alternate between: Boss Tank and Add Tank. Alternations are based on the Inversion Tank Swap.

The Boss Tank is responsible for holding the boss at a designated spot, making sure that the cleave does not kill any stray adds. THE BOSS CANNOT EVER CLEAVE AN ADD, IF HE DOES, IT WILL PROBABLY BE A WIPE. This tank will make sure that the boss is taking up the least amount of space on the platform with his telegraphs by holding him at the very edge. Before inversion is casted, he will then shift the boss away from the edge to give more room for the DPS to stand in Inversion. The Boss tank stands in Inversion and is knocked in a straight line directly through the boss and becomes the Add Tank.

As you are flying through the air and becoming the Add Tank, you should try and AoE taunt the adds in midair to get them to come to you. Remember that because you were in Inversion, all the threat you generated before the Inversion is basically irrelevant, you're going to have to fight like a rabid dog for threat.

The Add Tank is responsible for controlling the Guardian adds. Otherwise, your responsibility is up to the Grace DPS and the Justice DPS. The Justices and Lances are generally NOT within the realm of responsibility of the Add Tank, and if you CC or taunt or otherwise mess with their threat, you may actually incur the wrath of your DPS, who may not be able to deal with their respective mechanics if you interfere. Control the Guardians, help the DPS when requested. Odds are, the Guardians will die before the next inversion, leaving your realm of responsibility in regards to the adds finished. You then go to the boss and put in DPS on the boss. This is so that you generate some threat (DO NOT PULL OFF OF YOUR FELLOW TANK) before the inversion. When the Inversion happens, BE SURE NOT TO BE INSIDE THE INVERSION. You are the only player who isn't standing in the inversion, if you stand inside the inversion, you will instantaneously wipe the raid. DO NOT DO IT IF YOU ARE ADD tanking.

Should you perform your duties correctly, the Add Tank will be pulled into the Boss as they are not standing in Inversion. You then become the Boss Tank. You will be the only person who has any pre built threat on the boss, and as such SHOULD have threat. Done correctly, you should not need to taunt. Note that because you have been pulled in, you will do 50% less damage and thus 50% less threat, so your threat is incredibly precarious at this point, so make sure to generate a decent helping of threat before the Inversion cycle so you have a good head start, and use your taunt to multiply threat depending on how significant you think your head start is.

DPSing

For the majority of the fight, DPSing is the hardest role, and the role that the entire fight literally hinges on. If any of the DPS fuck up by dying or mismanaging their assigned duties, the raid wipes.

All of the DPS HAVE to stand inside every Inversion and get launched to a decent location. Failure to stand inside Inversion means that a DPS will likely have aggro on the Boss and all of the adds simultaneously, and means that you will probably kill us all horribly and quickly, after you die a gruesome death of course.

ALL DPS have to have good awareness on where adds spawn. Adds cannot get into the boss's cleave, so if a DPS sees an add near the boss that is running towards the boss, SHOOT THE FUCKING add. It's important to note that adds can spawn directly on the boss, but because there is a telegraph where adds spawn, you can cast an AoE on the telegraph and make yourself be the first target the add attacks.

ALL DPS should try to kill the adds around the same time for maximum efficiency. This is especially important early in the fight as the fight is designed to have the add management gradually reach "impossible" as the fight goes on. The better the kill timing in the first phase where the fight is a joke, the easier the phases when the fight is hell are for everyone involved.

The stacks decay at a 7 second interval, which is refreshed if an add dies during the debuff tickdown. It's better to kill 4 adds at the same time than to kill 3 adds at the same time and another 3 seconds later. Alternatively, if you kill 3 adds at one point, then wait 7 seconds to kill another add, you won't fuck up the decay timer since the decay has had time to decrease a stack.

The four assigned duties for each DPS have some overlap, but here's the general roadmap for every role.

Grace DPS: Kill OR Interrupt Graces on Raid Leader's Discretion based on stack count. If there are no Graces, kill Justices if the Justice DPS needs help (IE stunning the Justice). Otherwise kill Guardians or tunnel. DO NOT KILL LANCES UNLESS ASKED TO. Recommended to be a Guardian DPS. No other DPS can solo the Graces consistently, but it is difficult to do so in certain positions. Healers may need to help. There is also the possibility that TWO Graces spawn, if this happens, you are responsible for informing the Raid WHO is going on WHAT Grace.

Tunneler DPS: You tunnel the boss primarily, but if you are asked to help with the adds, it is expected for you to do so. You are the first line of defense if the Grace DPS cannot get a Grace in a situation such as needing to get in Inversion, as you are a ranged and have a 30M interrupt. It is basically mandatory that the Tunneler DPS be a ranged, as after inversion all the DPS are hindered, and there's no way to land within 15 meters of the boss following Inversion. Recommend Dirty Fighting Slinger.


Justice DPS: You stun and kill the Justices, requesting help from your fellow raid members. You are the only person who is allowed to DPS the Lances or call for other people to DPS the lances. You get threat on the Lances, then drag the laser beam telegraph to intercept the Justice to break the shield, then kill the Justice. Remember the spawning logic for lances! If a Lance just spawned, remember there is a possibility that the next wave WILL NOT have a lance, which makes Justices very annoying since at that point you will be reliant on stuns to break the shield!

Therefore, you should inform your raid to NOT KILL Lances if a Lance is needed to be banked. We call this "banking lances." The goal should be to keep one lance alive at all times in order to never create a situation where a Justice is alive and shielded but a Lance is not.

If there is no Lance, you are in charge of telling your fellow DPS, Tanks, and Healers to stun and control the Justice. You're essentially the raid leader when it comes to controlling Justices, do not be shy about being assertive, it is imperative that they die, because if allowed free reign they will eventually get too close to tanks and incinerate their faces.

Justices are your first priority as the Justice DPS unless there are two Graces. Coordinate with the Grace DPS on who does what, active communication is vital. Can be a ranged DPS or anything with an offtaunt. Ranged DPS is sketchier though because you actually need to damage the lances to get threat on them instead of just taunting. Guardian DPS is honestly preferred as well.

Guardian DPS: Doesn't really matter what class this is, your main focus is helping the Add Tank kill and control Guardians, and then you tunnel the boss unless one of your fellow DPS needs help.

Healers: You're gonna get beat the shit out of. A LOT. Kite adds to DPS so that they can take them off of you, and cleanse the Boss tank every 3 stacks of their armor debuff. You NEED to get into Inversion, if you do not get in Inversion, you're gonna wipe us, since you'll inevitably have threat on everything in the room instantaneously and kill us all. Good Inversion positioning lets you have access to healing everyone in the room. You should stand roughly 4 meters from Tyth during the intervals between inversions, then get in inversion as far away from the boss's center as possible. This should knock you into the center of the room, a short distance away from most of the players in the room and giving you access to the tanks when you most need it. Blah blah healer stuff.


Phase 3: (Technically starts at 25% but we like to change in advance to 35% as 35% is when the fight becomes basically impossible).


Around the 35% mark, the DPS and Tanks will begin the transition. After the next inversion, provided the boss is under the 7 rage mark ALL DPS NEED TO STOP KILLING ADDS and start TUNNELING THE BOSS. Unless there is a Grace up, in which the Grace DPS will go to control the Grace and kill it, all DPS should be killing the boss and only attacking adds if the adds have a chance of diving into the Boss cleave and wiping the raid. The Boss generates his own rage now every 15 seconds, just enough to have a neutral amount of rage, so any adds dying can tilt the barely controlled stacks of the boss into a freewheeling destruction machine that will obliterate us into tiny shreds of meat. Unless it's a Grace, no adds can die.

The Boss Tank performs the same duty as in prior phases, but the Add Tank must control ALL of the adds (and I mean all of them). All of the prior mechanics of the fight still occur, IE Inversion, so it's important to still be cognizant of these mechanics. YOU. WILL. GET. DICKED. IN. THE. FACE. You're going to have like 15 adds just chasing you around trying to shoot you until you're swiss cheese and your healers will be crying in a corner and cutting their wrists. Don't die, you die the adds run wild and the boss obliterates us all.

Healers, this is basically an even more uncontrolled and hellish hellscape than Brontes burn phase in terms of hecticness. It's barely contained chaos. In our best pulls we've had healers doing 12-15k EHPS each in the final burn. It's going to SUCK. Remember you still need to do Inversion. Have fun!

Provided the earlier phases were managed correctly, the burn phase should be completed before the boss goes full explosion mode and kills everybody.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13195126 Apr 17, 2017 at 01:03 AM
646 Posts
Thanks muert, I deleted your comment to make room for the rest of the guide but let me know if you find out how often adds spawn and the interval for intensification.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13203507 Apr 21, 2017 at 11:42 AM
3 Posts
You are really over-complicating this fight. Bring 4 burst spec dps, all dps kill all adds immediately except grace which you interrupt 3 times, then let it get one cast off before killing it (the good cast).

Healers can cleanse tanks literally whenever they feel like it, Tyth does no damage at all. We routinely let tanks get to 7+ stacks and weren't punished for it.

Tanks swap on inversion and do what you can to gather adds.

After inversion 2, one healer should stand out so that their threat isn't reset and the tank can taunt off their threat instead of 0 threat, bc everyone else's threat is reset and the new boss tank deal 50% less dmg. The healer getting pulled in will also be kiting adds as only they and the boss tank will have any threat. The "add tank" should try and kite the adds, but as long as they aren't on the main tank (so as to not get cleaved), it doesn't matter who they're on.

If you can't make it to the other side of the boss before inversion is over, its fine to stand out on a dps, boss dmg is irrelevant when the boss is >30%.

At 30% hold dmg until you get a wave with a grace, let the grace cast the good cast, then kill it. After that grace dies hard burn boss and the fight is over.
(Garfi's protégé)

Thank you for teaching me.
#13203562 Apr 21, 2017 at 12:10 PM
402 Posts
#13203507 Bodan wrote:

Bring 4 burst spec dps...



And for our groups that don't have 4 burst dps, we need a real walkthrough.
#13203899 Apr 21, 2017 at 03:30 PM · Edited 6 months ago
646 Posts
#13203507 Bodan wrote:

You are really over-complicating this fight. Bring 4 burst spec dps, all dps kill all adds immediately except grace which you interrupt 3 times, then let it get one cast off before killing it (the good cast).

Healers can cleanse tanks literally whenever they feel like it, Tyth does no damage at all. We routinely let tanks get to 7+ stacks and weren't punished for it.

Tanks swap on inversion and do what you can to gather adds.

After inversion 2, one healer should stand out so that their threat isn't reset and the tank can taunt off their threat instead of 0 threat, bc everyone else's threat is reset and the new boss tank deal 50% less dmg. The healer getting pulled in will also be kiting adds as only they and the boss tank will have any threat. The "add tank" should try and kite the adds, but as long as they aren't on the main tank (so as to not get cleaved), it doesn't matter who they're on.

If you can't make it to the other side of the boss before inversion is over, its fine to stand out on a dps, boss dmg is irrelevant when the boss is >30%.

At 30% hold dmg until you get a wave with a grace, let the grace cast the good cast, then kill it. After that grace dies hard burn boss and the fight is over.



This is how we did it on PTR, and makes justices far easier to deal with. We don't like using the Grace shield at all if we can avoid it, since the fight's boss dps check is minimal so you probably won't need a grace shield unless an add is killed by the boss, and proper kill timing minimizes extra stacks.

We killed the fight with 2 Guardians, Dirty Fighting, and Gunnery, so 3 dotspecs and one burst. This strat was originally designed to maximize the raid utility of each class and consistently dealing with each add.

As for aggro issues, that is solved by the add tank DPSing boss. Having healers stand out is unnecessary, you shouldn't need the threat from the healer if the tank is dpsing boss before inversion and adds are dying. Lance damage is completely avoidable so there's no reason not to bank them. Plus healers standing in inversion lets them have control over where they travel, putting them in a better position to heal the raid.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13210505 Apr 25, 2017 at 12:13 PM
414 Posts
So I think the inversion pull in works about like this:

Inversion Pic

X is the boss, letters on brown get pulled to the same letter in blue.

If you are on A, you will land directly on the boss.

You are always pulled directly towards the boss.

The distance you fly is based on your distance from the center of the platform, and the bosses distance from the center of the room.

I think F as I have it right now is wrong, I'll double check tonight.
#13212443 Apr 26, 2017 at 11:10 AM
414 Posts
I can safely say I have no idea how it decides how far to pull you in.

Most spots it will drop you at melee distance on the opposite side of the boss. Except for a couple of spots that drop you closer.
#13213117 Apr 26, 2017 at 06:19 PM · Edited 6 months ago
646 Posts
#13212443 Muert wrote:

I can safely say I have no idea how it decides how far to pull you in.

Most spots it will drop you at melee distance on the opposite side of the boss. Except for a couple of spots that drop you closer.



Ok. I think our DPS with Sriia was significantly slower in terms of boss DPS so having Fed back will help the single target by about 25s of boss time.

In terms of tanking strategy, I think the healer standout thing bears some consideration, though I'm not sure it's necessary since our best pulls have typically been with our normal strategy with no modifications. However I think we should examine how other groups move adds into a group before the kill, whereas right now we tend to kill them sort of where they stand, just at the same time. Perhaps some function of the tank having full control before the dps tears the adds apart will help when it comes to Inversions and adds walking in front of the boss. It seems to me that when we break into phase 2, the most possible mistakes occur, and once we get a smooth transition into burn phase, we're generally fine unless we die to pure flubby mistakes *cough* walking off a cliff.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13214315 Apr 27, 2017 at 11:45 AM
414 Posts
I think we can modify the healer stand out strat to get more control, less healer face eating.

Healer stands out at one of the spots that drops you behind the boss.

Inversion, healer now has all the add agro.

Healer goes to center of room.

Add tank meets them there and AE taunts to pick up everything.

Add tank goes and hits the boss for a while.

DPS kills adds with AoE. (Maybe just splash off the boss?)

The only limitation would be that the adds on the add tank must die before the inversion.
#13217080 Apr 28, 2017 at 08:31 PM
646 Posts
#13214315 Muert wrote:

I think we can modify the healer stand out strat to get more control, less healer face eating.

Healer stands out at one of the spots that drops you behind the boss.

Inversion, healer now has all the add agro.

Healer goes to center of room.

Add tank meets them there and AE taunts to pick up everything.

Add tank goes and hits the boss for a while.

DPS kills adds with AoE. (Maybe just splash off the boss?)

The only limitation would be that the adds on the add tank must die before the inversion.



Okay gotcha. I'm gonna try and put something together on Saturday to just pull it with whoever I can get and see how it goes, since both you and Sevek can't make it we're gonna experiment with whatever we can get.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13217961 Apr 29, 2017 at 01:06 PM
414 Posts
Good luck.



#13218935 Apr 30, 2017 at 03:42 AM
646 Posts
#13217961 Muert wrote:

Good luck.





Didn't see this in time, we got it to 4% again, we found a way to resolve the guardian issue for the most part, the shadow tank knockback root is super useful. I'll have tam make a writeup.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13218993 Apr 30, 2017 at 04:51 AM · Edited 6 months ago
646 Posts
This was our 5% pull, gyr got stuck somehow and died, stupid close to a kill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MP4rRaS30Fk&feature=youtu.be
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13219769 Apr 30, 2017 at 03:52 PM
651 Posts
So the key from a tanking standpoint is Guardian control. This is also the key from a raid-leading standpoint on basically every boss, but I suppose that's a different sort of Guardian…

Anyway, terminology… When I say "off-tank", I'm referring to the tank who is on the adds at that moment in time, while "boss tank" is on the boss. Obviously the Inversion flips this, and it's important to be clear about the terminology because all of the hard parts of the fight happen at the switch between the two.

The key to the whole fight is the off-tank ensuring that the guardians are either a) agro'd on the main tank, b) dead, or c) slowed/rooted/stunned exactly at the Inversion. This is made very challenging by the fact that adds can spawn exactly as the Inversion is going off. From a stack management standpoint, most of the possible problems arise from a Guardian that is not hindered in some way and agro'd on the new boss tank immediately after the Inversion.

So here's how you achieve this. If the adds fully spawn before the Inversion starts its cast, you have plenty of time to round them up and make sure you're out of the circle. What you need is all of the guardians to be in roughly the same spot. That spot can be inside the Inversion, but they all need to be in that spot. Just before the Inversion finishes (the timing isn't super-tight, so don't try to cut it too close), root/stun/slow them. Guardian tanks probably have the worst time with this, but Vanguards can Neural Surge and Shadows can Force Wave (with the root utility). As a sidebar, shadow tanks should not be taking Shadow Shelter or the longer resilience for this boss. Instead, take the movement passives, knockback root, interrupt reduction and the "shroud on cloak" talent. The other stuff is standard. Shroud on cloak is extremely helpful since it means you can get 2 consecutive self cleanses during tight spots for the healers.

Anyway, with the Guardians all in one spot, the boss tank gets inversioned out and immediately AoE taunts those Guardians. If they're close to the boss, this can be much harder for Vanguards to achieve (and non-trivial for Shadows or Guardians, though still possible). The ideal place for the Guardian puddle is dead center in the room, though that rarely happens. Immediately after the AoE taunt, the new off tank must look around toward the boss to make sure there are no guardians that were missed. If they see any, single taunt them over. If they can't single taunt, call that it's going in and perhaps the boss tank can do something about it (e.g. if the boss tank is a shadow at that moment, they can knockback root that add long enough for the healer or the off tank to get agro).

The hard part is if the adds are spawning as the Inversion finishes casting, and the two close spawns are Guardians. As far as I can tell, the spawn directly under the boss's feet can never be a Guardian, but the two left/right spawns can be. When they're both Guardians at the same time, there is very little you can do. We tried to handle this by having the boss tank preemptively taunt the right spawn add (from the perspective of the boss tank), while the off tank rooted the left spawn. This probably would have worked, but we were pretty tired by that point and didn't get to prove the strat.

The off tank should always call the number of guardians when the flip happens, so the boss tank knows when they have them all. Off tank should also always call when the guardians are grouped for AoEs, as a gentle reminder to that particular DPS. Guardians should be killed as close to simultaneously as possible, since that keeps the stack timer minimally disrupted. Try to puddle the guardians on top of the Justice if it is close to the boss. Barring that, puddle them on top of the Lance that is closest to the boss (if there are multiple lances). Barring that, just puddle them in the exact center of the room.

Oh yeah, and the boss tank should be calling when the inversion is coming. Inversion happens exactly at 5 stacks on the boss tank, which is about 5-8 seconds after the 4th stack. Call the Inversion as well, since the off tank might be doing other things.

---

Beyond all that, there are a few other things we learned. First off, if you're the off tank, taunt during the Inversion; don't wait until after the flip. The boss will turn around, but it doesn't matter, and in this way you inherit the boss tank's threat, rather than having to build it from scratch. This makes agro basically trivial. Focus targeting the boss helps, since you're also trying to stun and manage guardians.

Keep the boss's feet directly on the last cross-bar before the edge of the platform. Thus, when you stand out for Inversion, you'll be about 6 meters from the boss standing at the exact edge of the platform. Try to launch yourself toward the Guardians, if they aren't dead-center on the boss. If you're a shadow, it doesn't hurt to just blindly use Force Wave as you back up, since that will root anything about to walk under the boss.

Help out with stuns on the Justices and interrupts on the Graces. It's pretty easy to do this while managing the Guardians, and there's a lot of downtime for both tanks. If you're the boss tank, don't hesitate to turn the boss a little bit to adjust for Lances shooting at you or (in the worst case scenario), Guardians temporarily wandering under the boss's feet. Just remember that the expanding conal will be 180 degrees starting at 6 stacks, and you don't want to clip side spawn adds. Eat the Lance damage if you have to.

Speaking of Lance damage, the trickiest time for the healers is exactly at the Inversion, and it can be especially bad if a Lance was agro'd on anyone other than the off tank (which is to say, most of the time) and was firing at the moment of the swap. Be aggressive with cooldowns as you swap onto the boss, especially if there are multiple Lances.

During the burn phase, the off tank should try to be as precise as possible with the Guardians. There will be a million of them out, but the spawn timers are helpfully desync'd with Inversion by that point in the fight, so it's ironically easier to manage them than it is in the early going. Be aggressive with your cooldowns (especially white damage CDs), since the Guardians hurt a lot and there will be a lot them on you. Remember that your stuns/roots/snares all have a 5 target limit, and there will be more Guardians than that, so having them neatly puddled in the middle for a quick AoE taunt on Inversion is extremely important. Don't mess up your single taunt during the Inversion cast.

Don't die.
I can only be damaged to 90%
#13219792 Apr 30, 2017 at 04:15 PM
107 Posts
#13219769 Tam wrote:

So the key from a tanking standpoint is Guardian control. This is also the key from a raid-leading standpoint on basically every boss, but I suppose that's a different sort of Guardian…



literally loled
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not shoot,

The courage to shoot the things I can,

and the wisdom to hide the bodies.


#13219961 Apr 30, 2017 at 05:52 PM
646 Posts
#13219769 Tam wrote:

So the key from a tanking standpoint is Guardian control. This is also the key from a raid-leading standpoint on basically every boss, but I suppose that's a different sort of Guardian…

Anyway, terminology… When I say "off-tank", I'm referring to the tank who is on the adds at that moment in time, while "boss tank" is on the boss. Obviously the Inversion flips this, and it's important to be clear about the terminology because all of the hard parts of the fight happen at the switch between the two.

The key to the whole fight is the off-tank ensuring that the guardians are either a) agro'd on the main tank, b) dead, or c) slowed/rooted/stunned exactly at the Inversion. This is made very challenging by the fact that adds can spawn exactly as the Inversion is going off. From a stack management standpoint, most of the possible problems arise from a Guardian that is not hindered in some way and agro'd on the new boss tank immediately after the Inversion.

So here's how you achieve this. If the adds fully spawn before the Inversion starts its cast, you have plenty of time to round them up and make sure you're out of the circle. What you need is all of the guardians to be in roughly the same spot. That spot can be inside the Inversion, but they all need to be in that spot. Just before the Inversion finishes (the timing isn't super-tight, so don't try to cut it too close), root/stun/slow them. Guardian tanks probably have the worst time with this, but Vanguards can Neural Surge and Shadows can Force Wave (with the root utility). As a sidebar, shadow tanks should not be taking Shadow Shelter or the longer resilience for this boss. Instead, take the movement passives, knockback root, interrupt reduction and the "shroud on cloak" talent. The other stuff is standard. Shroud on cloak is extremely helpful since it means you can get 2 consecutive self cleanses during tight spots for the healers.

Anyway, with the Guardians all in one spot, the boss tank gets inversioned out and immediately AoE taunts those Guardians. If they're close to the boss, this can be much harder for Vanguards to achieve (and non-trivial for Shadows or Guardians, though still possible). The ideal place for the Guardian puddle is dead center in the room, though that rarely happens. Immediately after the AoE taunt, the new off tank must look around toward the boss to make sure there are no guardians that were missed. If they see any, single taunt them over. If they can't single taunt, call that it's going in and perhaps the boss tank can do something about it (e.g. if the boss tank is a shadow at that moment, they can knockback root that add long enough for the healer or the off tank to get agro).

The hard part is if the adds are spawning as the Inversion finishes casting, and the two close spawns are Guardians. As far as I can tell, the spawn directly under the boss's feet can never be a Guardian, but the two left/right spawns can be. When they're both Guardians at the same time, there is very little you can do. We tried to handle this by having the boss tank preemptively taunt the right spawn add (from the perspective of the boss tank), while the off tank rooted the left spawn. This probably would have worked, but we were pretty tired by that point and didn't get to prove the strat.

The off tank should always call the number of guardians when the flip happens, so the boss tank knows when they have them all. Off tank should also always call when the guardians are grouped for AoEs, as a gentle reminder to that particular DPS. Guardians should be killed as close to simultaneously as possible, since that keeps the stack timer minimally disrupted. Try to puddle the guardians on top of the Justice if it is close to the boss. Barring that, puddle them on top of the Lance that is closest to the boss (if there are multiple lances). Barring that, just puddle them in the exact center of the room.

Oh yeah, and the boss tank should be calling when the inversion is coming. Inversion happens exactly at 5 stacks on the boss tank, which is about 5-8 seconds after the 4th stack. Call the Inversion as well, since the off tank might be doing other things.

---

Beyond all that, there are a few other things we learned. First off, if you're the off tank, taunt during the Inversion; don't wait until after the flip. The boss will turn around, but it doesn't matter, and in this way you inherit the boss tank's threat, rather than having to build it from scratch. This makes agro basically trivial. Focus targeting the boss helps, since you're also trying to stun and manage guardians.

Keep the boss's feet directly on the last cross-bar before the edge of the platform. Thus, when you stand out for Inversion, you'll be about 6 meters from the boss standing at the exact edge of the platform. Try to launch yourself toward the Guardians, if they aren't dead-center on the boss. If you're a shadow, it doesn't hurt to just blindly use Force Wave as you back up, since that will root anything about to walk under the boss.

Help out with stuns on the Justices and interrupts on the Graces. It's pretty easy to do this while managing the Guardians, and there's a lot of downtime for both tanks. If you're the boss tank, don't hesitate to turn the boss a little bit to adjust for Lances shooting at you or (in the worst case scenario), Guardians temporarily wandering under the boss's feet. Just remember that the expanding conal will be 180 degrees starting at 6 stacks, and you don't want to clip side spawn adds. Eat the Lance damage if you have to.

Speaking of Lance damage, the trickiest time for the healers is exactly at the Inversion, and it can be especially bad if a Lance was agro'd on anyone other than the off tank (which is to say, most of the time) and was firing at the moment of the swap. Be aggressive with cooldowns as you swap onto the boss, especially if there are multiple Lances.

During the burn phase, the off tank should try to be as precise as possible with the Guardians. There will be a million of them out, but the spawn timers are helpfully desync'd with Inversion by that point in the fight, so it's ironically easier to manage them than it is in the early going. Be aggressive with your cooldowns (especially white damage CDs), since the Guardians hurt a lot and there will be a lot them on you. Remember that your stuns/roots/snares all have a 5 target limit, and there will be more Guardians than that, so having them neatly puddled in the middle for a quick AoE taunt on Inversion is extremely important. Don't mess up your single taunt during the Inversion cast.

Don't die.



Slight contradiction, the add under the boss's feet can be anything, including a guardian. It just tends to die before tanks have to deal with it because it's a standing order to kill anything not a grace instantly if it's on the boss.
Rydarus Veneris the Revanchist
The Black Swordsman
#fedaracarrychist
#storyisflavor #contentissubstance

Guardian DPS Guide on Dulfy.net:
http://dulfy.net/2015/11/16/swtor-4-0-vigilance-guardian-pve-guide-by-rydarus/


#13219968 Apr 30, 2017 at 05:57 PM · Edited 3 months ago
4 Posts
#13219769 Tam wrote:

Speaking of Lance damage, the trickiest time for the healers is exactly at the Inversion, and it can be especially bad if a Lance was agro'd on anyone other than the off tank (which is to say, most of the time) and was firing at the moment of the swap. Be aggressive with cooldowns as you swap onto the boss, especially if there are multiple Lances.



Completely incorrect. The *trickiest time* completely varies, but is usually the hardest 5-10 seconds after inversion ends when the adds get their bearings.
#13220223 Apr 30, 2017 at 10:04 PM
414 Posts
#13219968 Chess wrote:

#13219769 Tam wrote:

Speaking of Lance damage, the trickiest time for the healers is exactly at the Inversion, and it can be especially bad if a Lance was agro'd on anyone other than the off tank (which is to say, most of the time) and was firing at the moment of the swap. Be aggressive with cooldowns as you swap onto the boss, especially if there are multiple Lances.



Completely incorrect. The *trickiest time* completely varies, but is usually the hardest 5-10 seconds after inversion ends when the adds get their bearings.


I typically pop a cooldown right after inversion, so it could be your time frame is when that runs out?
#13221144 May 01, 2017 at 11:11 AM
651 Posts
#13219968 Chess wrote:

#13219769 Tam wrote:

Speaking of Lance damage, the trickiest time for the healers is exactly at the Inversion, and it can be especially bad if a Lance was agro'd on anyone other than the off tank (which is to say, most of the time) and was firing at the moment of the swap. Be aggressive with cooldowns as you swap onto the boss, especially if there are multiple Lances.



Completely incorrect. The *trickiest time* completely varies, but is usually the hardest 5-10 seconds after inversion ends when the adds get their bearings.


With the disclaimer that I didn't heal it, I tanked it…

When I died, it was always at the swap. I never once died 5-10 seconds after the swap. Nor was I ever in appreciable danger at that mark.
I can only be damaged to 90%
Page 1